Join us for our final episode on the Coppergate excavation! Today we're joined by the Director of Attractions, Sarah Maltby. We chat about the bigger picture of life on Coppergate, how the excavation changed not just York but the world, and what exactly Sarah means when she says "archaeology is rubbish."
Listen and enjoy, and please consider leaving us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen!
Join us for our final episode on the Coppergate excavation! Today we're joined by the Director of Attractions, Sarah Maltby. We chat about the bigger picture of life on Coppergate, how the excavation changed not just York but the world, and what exactly Sarah means when she says "archaeology is rubbish."
Listen and enjoy, and please consider leaving us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen!
Miranda 0:00
In Viking times, a "thing" was a gathering, a place where leaders and warriors could meet and talk. In the 21st century, our "thing" is a virtual place, where history academics and enthusiasts from around the world can come together to share knowledge. I'm your host, Miranda Schmeiderer, and this season, we’re doing a deep dive into the Coppergate excavation. So hold on to your helmets for this episode of That Jorvik Viking Thing podcast!
Today is our final episode on the Coppergate excavation. We’ve heard stories from the people who worked on the dig itself and talked to people who work with the collection today. We’ve learned about the history of the dig , what was found, and how those artefacts were conserved. But the big question remains: why does it matter? To discuss that and more, we talked to Sarah Maltby, Director of Attractions here at the York Archaeological Trust.
So, the first question we’ve got for you is before Coppergate, the history of Vikings in Britain was really focused on their invasion, everyone saw them as warriors who were really only concerned with battle. But at Coppergate, we found very little evidence of that. So what kind of Vikings were living at Coppergate?
Sarah 1:15
So they were everyday folk, really. They were families, they were craft workers. And they were people who are possibly coming in from the countryside, possibly coming in from elsewhere, from across the North Sea, for example. But they were, as I say, they were everyday folk, they weren't - they may have been warriors, who knows, you know, in a past life, they may have a come, fought, and then settled, but the evidence we found was predominantly or exclusively, I guess, was everyday living. It was houses, it was clothing, it was food, you know, so that's why Coppergate was so important, because it was the first time that any archaeological excavation had found that extent of everyday life really.
Miranda 2:04
That kind of reminds me of the interview I did with Judith Jesch, where she kind of was saying how we do have this image of like burly men as as fighters and everything, but of course, that doesn't represent all of the Viking men, first of all, but even the other half of everyone else. So it is good that I think we found all of that evidence at Coppergate. So then if all of these ordinary folks were living at Coppergate, where did they come from? Were they just from Scandinavia, or did they come from elsewhere as well?
Sarah 2:30
Well, we think probably some of them were there already. You know, it was already a city that had been established by the Romans, as we know, as Eboracum. And it continued through the years after that we don't know a great deal about the Anglo Saxon population of York or Eoforwīc, as it was known then, we know some and we're hoping to find out more as a Trust as we dig more sites in York. But certainly, there would have been people that have been living there for generations, I would have thought. But yes, there were people there from the isotopic work that we've done and certainly on - If you take one of the skeletons that we excavated in Coppergate, and there were only two complete skeletons that we found from the Viking Age period in Coppergate. This one was a female who we have done a lot of scientific analysis on, we know a lot about her in terms of stature, sort of the things that she suffered from because she did have various impairments and difficulties, I would say. But we also know that she came from Norway, in the work that we've done, which is fantastic to know that, you know, we were getting a population from across Europe. But we also think that our population in York, as it is now, was made up of people from across the world who were travelling - those who are able to travel anyway. We know, having looked at other collections of human remains in York, and Coppergate is just a small collection, as I've said, you know, that there were people from other cultures, from other countries, not necessarily first generation. So we have a skeleton again in Jorvik who shows signs of being of African descent. But we don't know if, again, if that's first generation or second or third, because, you know, we're assuming that people from other countries did come across with the Romans. And so who knows, it's just very interesting to note, I think that based on the skeletal evidence, and also the trading evidence that we have, that the population of York in the time of the Vikings was a very diverse one. And I think that's really interesting to remember and to focus on when we think about the world today, I guess.
Miranda 4:35
Definitely, it makes it feel less foreign. You know, if we look at the people from the past, and they look like our society does now it doesn't feel like they were that far away after all, does it?
Sarah 4:45
Exactly, exactly. And they probably had the same concerns and everything else that we worry about today, I'm not quite sure if they would worry about a pandemic.But yeah, they would have been, I hope, and think, you know, fairly similar to us.
Miranda 5:00
So in that kind of same vein, then, as you know, simple everyday folks sort of thing like us, what kind of jobs did we find evidence for? What did they do for a living?
Sarah 5:08
Well, we have a lot of crafts people. So a huge portion of the evidence that we have is for crafts such as blacksmithing, wood turning, leather working. So we have that, and particularly in the reconstructions, because of the evidence that we found on this particular part of Coppergate, you know, we've got this craft working centre, really. And so we do have those people and the evidence that we have to reflect that are things like you know, in terms of woodworking, for example, we have the bowls, and we have the cups in the record, which is an exciting thing, because they're not often left. But we also have the waste, and that's why we know that we have these crafts people working on that spot, it's not just a finished item that people perhaps have discarded or used in their homes, and then you know, tossed to one side or whatever, it's actually the waste that comes from manufacturing these things. So we have blacksmithing waste, you know, we have the remains of iron working, etc., in fireplaces we have, as I say, wood cores from bowls, we have offcuts of leather and bone and antler. So we know all these people were working in Coppergate. But we also suspect and know that, you know there were fishermen, we have evidence of fishing, you know, we have fishing hooks, and we have thousands upon thousands of fish bones. So we know people eating fish, and mussels and oysters and all that kind of thing. So there were fishermen bringing fish in from the sea as well as the rivers - obviously York stands on the Ouse and the Foss. So we know that there's a lot of fishing going on. So we have those kinds of industries as well. And then, you know, the women in the home and you know, they have their own jobs to do so that again, we mustn't forget that that was really important. Because, you know, we have a lot of evidence for textiles and textile working. So things like loom weights and textiles themselves, actually. And so we know that these kinds of occupations were going on in the home, and that women played a very important part in all of that, producing these textiles that have been used for clothing or blankets. And so you know, all really important parts of Viking life, if you like, all came together to build this culture that is then left in the archaeological record for us.
Miranda 7:26
I love that you mentioned textile work because people wouldn't necessarily think about that when thinking of a traditional job. But of course, making fabric is very time consuming, as much as any full time job would be so that's definitely great to consider as well, that is another aspect of their lives. And I couldn't do it - one article of clothing taking weeks to make would just about take it out of me, I think.
Sarah 7:48
Exactly, yeah, really important, I think and we mustn't forget that. And you know, it wasn't just the big cloth fabric, you know, that they were making into clothes, obviously. But you know, all of that intricate decoration, like the tablet weaving, which they would have used to decorate, to edge the edges of clothing, cloaks, etc, you know, the nalbinding we have in Jorvik, the only Viking sock remaining, which, you know, people should come and see, if they haven't seen the Viking sock, they need to come and see it, because it is a unique object. And it's been made by somebody really carefully, it's been darned by somebody really carefully, you know, it has this red band on it. So it probably had a red leg, you know, and that, when you think about it, as you say, you know, loads of work into that. I've never tried nalbinding, I've seen our Vikings do it. And it looks complicated. And I don't think I could do it. Similarly, the tablet weaving, again, beautiful things that can be produced by just, you know, this sort of thread and cards, some of which we've got left in the archaeological record, but really important and gives a real depth I think to who the Vikings were, what they look like, what was important to them, that kind of thing, I think.
Miranda 8:55
Definitely. On that kind of similar note, then we found loads of rubbish at Coppergate, of course, that's, you know, the majority of what archaeologists tend to find a lot of it was from food production and consumption. So you mentioned fish and things like that. What else do we know was being eaten at Coppergate?
Sarah 9:13
Well, quite a variety. I should say, of course, archaeology IS rubbish, everybody says that. So it is really important. And the reason why we know a lot about the Vikings who lived in Jorvik at that time is because of that environmental waste that has been preserved in the soil. So as you say, we have fish and fish is a really interesting one. Because if you look at fish bones, actually because it brings up other subjects. And if you look at the fish bones over time, over the few hundred years that the Vikings are in York, they get smaller. So actually, the Vikings were overfishing, which is an interesting thing to think about today in terms of overfishing stocks, you know, now, so cod, which we've got a lot of bones from, got smaller over the 200-300 years that the Vikings were in York, so fish, yes. And oysters, a sort of shellfish, which we would think of a fairly exclusively rich food nowadays, I think, but they're eating a lot of those. But then meat, we've got an awful lot of of animal bone, and also cooked animal bones to show that they were cooking it so you know cattle, beef, and sheep, pork, all of the sort of regular foodstuffs if you like, and, but then we've got odd things like guillemot, which I always found fascinating. We've got bones from guillemot. So whether or not we eat them, we don't know. But possibly, you know, we have a lot of different animal and bird bones, you know, we've got chicken, we've got eggs. And we've done a lot of work on egg shells recently, actually, we worked with York University, and looked at our animal remains in particular. And we've done a project on egg shells so we can tell what sort of chickens they had in Jorvik at the time. So there's all these types of things that you can find out from this very minute evidence. I mean we have seed crops, we have cereal, we have evidence that they were drinking beer, wine, you know, it's a really, you know, rich diet, I suppose. A lot of things have been wouldn't have necessarily been grown in the city, may have been grown outside the city and then brought in we think, you know, by trade. And so yeah, it's, it's, I think, really interesting when you look at the food stuffs, of course, from that, from that you go into our coprolite that is now shown in Jorvik but is actually from Lloyds Bank excavation and in that you can actually see what people ate as well. So it's not just the food evidence that shows you what people ate, it's other other evidence as well. So the coprolite - the poo, if you like - shows you that they're eating grain and also that this particular individual who deposited this coprolite suffered from various intestinal worms as well. So we know that and then when we look at pots, the other type of evidence that you can find when you look at pottery from the period, again using archaeological science, we can tell what they were cooking in those pots through the lipids that are left in the pots, the fats. So recent studies, for example, we've looked at certain pots from the Coppergate excavation, and found that they were cooking meaty stews, and leafy vegetables, all very obvious stuff, I suppose. But it's really nice to have that confirmed when you do the scientific analysis. So it's not only as I say, the food remains, I suppose that you find in the archaeological record, but it's other evidence that you found on other materials that you might be digging up as well.
Miranda 12:37
I love the whole lipid thing. I'm not much of a science person, so that just absolutely blows my mind anytime I hear about it, just by looking at a thousand year old pot, you can know what was cooked inside of it. That's incredible. Absolutely incredible. So we excavated four tenements on Coppergate, places that were combined houses and workshops. What were the houses like and did they change at all over time?
Sarah 12:58
They did change. So early periods were these wattle houses. So that's very, very early, that were kind of one story, although there is a big, big debate about whether later houses were one or two stories, that's something that's still kind of out there in the archaeological realms of discussion. But the early houses were wattle. And you know, there were single rooms, single height, and we have a lot of evidence for those. We then have this point in time, which is around about 960, when we move from those wattle houses to timber houses, using planks and boards. And it's really interesting, and it's work that we did and looked at when we refurbished Jorvik after the flood, when we totally had to rebuild Jorvik. We re-dated the reconstruction to around 960 AD, which is the period that the housing changed from this wattle structure to this timber structure, timber frame structure. And, and that date actually also coincides when Eric Bloodaxe, who was the last Viking king in Jorvik, got thrown out of Jorvik. And so there is an idea that that actually coincided then, that change in buildings coincided with a change in leadership. So he was thrown out, different earls came in, there was a new sort of land ownership, a new way of doing things. And therefore they cleared all of those original early houses and started to build this new design. So we've got both. When we look at the archaeological record, when we did the excavation, we found both and I think some of the most exciting photographs, actually, when you look at the archive of Coppergate excavation, is seeing those timbers still in the ground, you know, sort of two, three foot high, and you just think, you know, they are 1,000 year old buildings sitting there in the mud, still for us to see and I love looking at those photographs because they're just fascinating, you know, to have all that timber there. And when you go into Jorvik and one of the first things you see is an actual timber wall that we excavated and you can get up you know, you can virtually press your nose against it, I think that's great. You know I just think it's really interesting but that's what we've got, a whole sort of period and change in housing.
Miranda 15:13
I love those pictures as well because it does look like that you're basically just inside of someone's house, more or less, or like it's being built around you. It's like the timbers look like you could basically build a house out of them now it's incredible.
Sarah 15:25
Yeah, exactly. They look solid. I don't think they are because they're actually full of PEG wax and you know when we conserve them because actually when we dug them up we were the one of the first organisations to conserve the timbers in that way which is another story for another time perhaps.
Miranda 15:42
So obviously a lot of Coppergate was about getting this better, kind of well rounded image of what Viking life was like. And of course, life includes children. So what evidence do we have for children at Coppergate? And what were they doing?
Sarah 15:55
We don't have any sort of skeletal evidence, any human remains of children. We assume children must have been there because Vikings were here for two hundred odd years, so there must have been children at some point. What we do have is gaming evidence, we have hnefatafl gaming pieces - hnefatafl which is an early form of chess really. And so games are being played, we have a really interesting find, which is actually from a grave, and it's part of the coffin lid, I guess. And on that has, somebody has etched in a kind of fox and geese solitaire game into that, and we have that in the collection to see. So I don't know if it was children playing that we don't know, it's a fascinating story, but we've not really concluded what that is. And we have ice skates. But again, I don't think they're confined to children. We have adult sized ice skates. Oh, we do have small shoes. Actually, one of the things we do have is a small child size leather shoe, which is nice. And we have a lot of shoes in the collection, which is unique to Coppergate because of the conditions of the soil. But yeah, a really nice child's shoe, which you can see in Jorvik. So a few pieces. I mean, we just have to assume that the children were there, you know that they had a part to play. And we've looked at things like what would the children be doing, for example, in Jorvik in those days. And one of the things we talk about in DIG actually, our sister attraction, is that children, for example, would be working in roles with some of the craftspeople. So we assume that the blacksmith and actually recreate this on the set, the blacksmith has his son next to him, and he's kind of teaching him the ways of the blacksmith. And he's you know, and probably the younger family members were involved in those crafting, you know, perhaps cleaning out the fires and that kind of thing. So we make assumptions, but I think they're assumptions that are quite sensible, should I say, because they must have been doing those sorts of things.
Miranda 18:03
So kind of overall, like I think Coppergate really significantly changed the way that people viewed the Vikings. Can you maybe sum up for us like, how it might have been before and then how was it after? How did our perception of Vikings change directly because of Coppergate?
Sarah 18:17
Well, I think the first thing to say is actually the excavation on Coppergate changed the way that people thought about York, because before we did the excavation of Coppergate, before we found all those remarkable finds from the Viking Age, York was mainly thought of as a Roman city, you know, it has got Roman roots, obviously. But I think before we did the excavation, that was the predominant period in York's history that was recognised as the important one. And actually, when we dug Coppergate, that changed everybody's perception. And York now very much, I would argue, is a Viking city. And I think that is - well, I know it is to do with Coppergate because it was so important at the time and did change everybody's perception of the city itself. But from a subject point of view, I think again, you know, because we found the evidence that was every day, and it wasn't [fighters], we haven't actually found a weapon in Coppergate, we've got an axe head, but that was probably you know, for chopping wood or whatever. But we haven't got weapons. We do show weapons in Jorvik, but they're from a collection from the British Museum, they were found down in the Thames. So I think before we found all that evidence and all that fantastic detail, intricate detail about Vikings lives, you know, it was very much this perception of big burly blokes with horns on their helmets and beards. And you know, the women didn't really get a look in, the children really didn't get to look in. And I think we've made people think, I really do. And I know when people come round Jorvik and look at the reconstructions, which is all based on the archaeology that we've done, I do think it changes people's minds. And as we talked earlier about this idea that that Jorvik wasn't just, you know, Vikings with beards and helmets or whatever, that it was this mix of cultures, this mix of people from across the world, hopefully that's changing people's perceptions as well, that it was this melting pot of cultures and people and you know, and I think that's what's really important, and one of the important things that Jorvik has achieved that yeah, it's changed people's minds. And that's great. And I hope we can go on doing that. Because, you know, we're finding more and more evidence, we're always digging things up as a Trust, you know, and we're always investigating things, whether that's working with universities, or we're doing our own research, our own conservation. And I think, you know, one of the one of the big things about York Archaeological Trust is that we can do that and, you know, we continue to do that in the future.
Miranda 20:39
Well, that actually ties in really nicely with my next question. So obviously, our understanding of Vikings is still changing. It's every with new sciences as they develop and things, all these new techniques, we're constantly learning more information. So how has Jorvik changed since its original incarnation?
Sarah 20:56
Well, it is interesting because we've got photographs going back to 1984. So, you know, all the years that we've been open, and it's, um, it's amusing and interesting to look at the photographs. So Jorvik's had four different versions. We opened in 1984, as I said, the first time around. We've always had a reconstruction on a ride of the Viking city, which has always been based on the archaeology that we found there. But obviously, techniques and modelling and animatronics and how to replicate objects has changed, the ride itself has changed, we originally had one that ran on the ground, like a little box trolley. And now of course, it's a suspended capsule that travels around the city. It's always been the same size, it's quite entertaining, when you talk to people who remember the earlier versions of Jorvik, that some of them think it was bigger, it's never been bigger. It's always been that size. But I think people's perception changed over time. And we've changed the galleries, I mean, the galleries have changed, probably more than anything in Jorvik, and you know, different themes. We've had all sorts of different themes in the galleries, from looking at burials, to looking at a theme about “are you a Viking,” stuff looking at place names, looking at other remains. So that's changed quite a lot. So as I say, we've had four versions of Jorvik, the first opening in 1984, we changed again in 2000, opening in 2001. And that was a complete revamp - again, essentially the same thing, just done with new methods. We slightly changed in 2010, just putting in some new galleries, changing the narrative on the ride as new research had come in and we felt that we needed to update things a little bit. And then most recently was in 2015-16, reopening in 2017, which is when after Jorvik flooded at Christmas 2015. And again, it's the same size, and we have changed things, again based on new research. So we have included a lot more about the human remains because of the isotopic research that we can do now, DNA research that we can do now, a lot of research on that environmental evidence that I've been talking about. So we put in new animatronics, for example, completely in 2016 working with a company from America, who designed them with us, so that we can get down to the most intricate detail on the figures that illustrate who the people were that lived there. And we put in a lot of other details as well, I suppose this last time around, again, based on the research. So for example, in the part of the reconstruction where you're looking at textiles and dyeing cloth, etc. We specifically researched the type of wool, what sort of sheep would it have come from, and we tracked and we found a species of sheep that exists today that generations ago would have lived in Viking times - the herdwick. So we brought that in and we dyed those textiles with dyes that were based on the research that we've done on the dyeing evidence, so it's all authentic in that part of it, I mean, it's a lot of stuff that you wouldn't necessarily notice when you're going around the ride, first time around, second time around, but maybe third time around. And so we've put in a lot more detail this time for this version of Jorvik. We've also put live actors on the ride to portray our Vikings and trained them to speak in Old Norse or Old English, which is very new. So we've done a lot of work on language this time around. I think the only thing, the one thing that has remained current is our man on the toilet, of course. So we have always had a man on the toilet in Jorvik, he has evolved into a different figure each time and this time he's actually got a roof on his toilet. So you know we've kept things the same if you like that have been really popular and that we're known for. We've always had smells for example, people know us for our smells, but this time around, we put in a lot more smells. We actually designed new smells to illustrate more parts of the story. So we've got in this version of Jorvik, for example, a deathbed scene where we have a priest, so we have an incense smell within that scene. So you know, we've introduced subtleties, and new scenes, new evidence and new research. And we continue to do that.
Miranda 25:26
So obviously, Jorvik was a very multicultural place, there was a lot of trade and things like that happening. We still have those connections, don't we, with people from other countries, other museums. What do we learn from each other? How do we grow from that relationship?
Sarah 25:40
Well you're right, you know, we do have really good relationships and networks within the Viking world, which is a vast world. We are part of an organisation called Destination Viking Association, which has about 50 members, you know, across Scandinavia, but also into Poland, and Spain, and France, and America. And all over really, wherever the Vikings got to, we have now partners. And that has been a really good network to understand, you know, that that wider framework, if you like, to the Viking world. So that relationship has been really important to us. You know, not only have we been able to see differences and add those into our story, but also similarities. So it's really interesting, when you're talking to people from museums in Scandinavia and looking at their collections, you know, you can see where influences have come from. And I think that's really, really interesting, when you're looking at our collection of objects, you know, that you can see where perhaps the influence for a brooch or something has come from, because you see a similar object in a collection overseas, you know, we do have objects in our collection from Ireland, for example, Scandinavia, and when you go over to those countries, you can see where those objects have come from. So you know, those links are really important. So it's great to have friends in those countries, because they bring a lot to the museum, they bring a different perspective. So I think that's the main reason, the important bit is widening the story by having those friends in different places that can tell different aspects of the story.
Miranda 27:08
Definitely. Well, that brings us to our very last question, then. Is there anything else that you specifically want our listeners to know about Jorvik?
Sarah 27:15
So, we've been closed, obviously, for the past year, more or less on and off. But we are reopening on the 17th of May. We have had to implement a lot of safety measures. So things have changed slightly. But in all of this, in all of this past year, what we've been really keen on is preserving the Jorvik visit because I think we are known for the type of visit that we do. It's very interactive, you know, you can talk to a Viking - where else can you do that in this country? And you know, we've been really keen through all of this, through the pandemic to maintain that because it is really important to us. So when people come back, they still will be able to talk to our Vikings, albeit through a mask initially. But you know, they're there and you can find out about the objects, you can see those objects really close up. Yes, okay, at the moment, we might not be handling those objects, but in the future we will be. The other thing that I think we need to talk about is the fact that actually now, because of the pandemic, we've done an awful lot digitally. So as well as coming to Jorvik physically, you can also come to Jorvik virtually, and that's been a real success story for the past few months, you know, particularly for schools and learners learning at home, who can have an outreach in their own classroom and have a Viking talk to them directly. And I think that work that we've been doing over the past few months with our collection, with our team of Vikings, has been really important to keep people engaged in the physical Jorvik and to keep the stories alive, really. So we will keep going. We still want people to come back as visitors, whether that's physically or virtually, but you know, it still will be that same exciting Jorvik experience, which I hope everybody can enjoy.
Miranda 29:04
Special thanks to Sarah Maltby for being our guest today.
We hope you enjoyed this deep dive into the Coppergate excavation. If you want to learn more, why not visit us in person? Book your tickets now at JorvikVikingCentre.Co.Uk. Come see where it all happened and check out these amazing finds for yourself! You’ll even be able to speak to one of our Viking interpreters and learn more about Viking-age York.
That’s it for us for this season. Thank you once again to Rachel Cutler, Chris Tuckley, Ian Panter, and Sarah Maltby for coming onto the show, and to Lucas Norton and Max O’Keeffe for research assistance. And thank you, our listeners, for tuning in. We’re going to move to a fortnightly release schedule for the next couple months, but stayed tuned as we talk to fascinating guests such as Bruni Boast, John Arey, and Matt Lewis. Check out our Instagram at JorvikViking for hints about their episodes!
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This time, we recommend “Children of Ash and Elm” by Neil Price. Based on the latest archaeological and textual evidence, Neil tells the story of the Vikings on their own terms: their politics, their cosmology and religion, their material world. More than just the stereotype of violent sailors, the Vikings exported new ideas, technologies, beliefs, and practices to the lands they sailed to and the peoples they encountered. In the process, they themselves were changed too.
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That Jorvik Viking Thing Podcast is a production of the Jorvik Group and York Archaeological Trust. Researched by Miranda Schmeiderer and Ashley Fisher. Written and produced by Ashley Fisher. Sound designed and edited by Miranda Schmeiderer.