Interview with a Special Guest: Terry Deary

How did the world famous Horrible Histories series get its start? Why do people like grusome history so much? 

Learn all this and more as we talk to Terry Deary about everything from pandemics (both historical and modern),  to Mr and Mrs Peasant, to the Great North Run! 

Listen and enjoy, and please consider leaving us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen!

Transcript

Miranda  00:00

Hi, and welcome to That Jorvik Viking Thing Podcast. I'm your host, Miranda Schmeiderer. In Viking times, a Thing was a gathering a place where leaders and warriors could meet and talk. In the 21st century, our Thing is a virtual place where Viking academics and enthusiasts from around the world can come together to share knowledge. So hold on to your helmets as we learn more about Vikings on That Jorvik Viking Thing Podcast. 

Miranda  00:38

Today on the podcast, we've got a very special guest. You may know him from his best selling series Horrible Histories, books that children the world over enjoy thanks to all the gruesome bits and foul facts packed inside the cover. That's right, we're joined by the one and only Terry Deary. Hi, Terry, thank you for being with us today. A lot of our listeners will know you best from your Horrible Histories books. How did those books come about?

Terry Deary  01:03

When you ask how did the books come about, It makes it sound as if it's a homogenous thing. That would be like asking Roald Dahl "how did your children's books come about?" But Witches is totally different to Charlie in the Chocolate Factory, which is totally different to James and the Giant Peach. And so I wouldn't want people to think that Horrible Histories is a homogenous series. In fact, I will tell you a secret. One of the reasons why Horrible Histories is so successful is there is no format. I don't look at the sort of shape and say right, we're going to Tudors today. Let's fill in Tudor facts. Victorians tomorrow, same shape, fill in Victorian facts. Every book is different. 

Terry Deary  01:51

But how the first one came about is it was never meant to be a history book. I'd written about 50 novels for children. And so I was seen as a sort of safe pair of hands. You want the book written? Go to Terry Deary, he'll deliver on time. And so they came to me and said, "Terry, would you like to write for next Christmas a Father Christmas joke?" You know, the sort of thing - "What was Tarzan's favourite Christmas song?" And the answer is "Jungle Bells Jungle Bells." I didn't say they were good jokes. But the book was very successful. And publishers have this thing, if you've got a success, just flog it till it's dead really. So next year, "can you write a history joke book?" So "where did the French buy their guillotines? In the Chopping centre!" We thought some of these jokes were not great. "So tell you what, Terry, why don't you put in a few facts from history as well. Quirky, unusual facts." I said, well, I'm not a historian. But I can get some researchers to do this for me. And I discovered, and the publishers discovered that actually, the facts were more interesting than the jokes. So we planned a joke book with facts. And we ended up with a fact book with jokes. And nobody had ever done that before. And suddenly, a rather dry subject, and I'm sure there are lots of historians out there, they will probably want to kill me for saying that, but history for me, certainly at school, was very dry and a lot of children see it that way. And so a dry subject became fun. And funny. They also did something very clever. Instead of using a children's book illustrator, they employed a cartoonist, Mark Brown. And there is a difference as you'll appreciate. If you look at today's newspaper, you will see cartoons scattered throughout. And that's what Martin did. He writes cartoons. And so instead of an illustrated book, we had a cartoon book, and Horrible Histories were born. And oddly, they sold really well. And so the publishers came back for another two, and they published four. 

Terry Deary  04:13

And then came one of those moments in time, where everything just comes together at the right moment. It's called a perfect storm, I think. And in 1995, they said would I write about the blitz. That was the next subject on their list, but 1995 happened to be the 50th anniversary of the end of World War Two. I hope I've got me sums right. And the bookshops decided let's make a feature of this. So they dug out Kerry's War and Goodnight Mr. Tom and When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit, and along came this new title at the right time for the big promotion: Blitzed Brits. And suddenly, they had something new and fresh. Not that there's anything wrong with Kerry's War or Goodnight, Mr. Tom, but they had this new thing to promote. 

Terry Deary  05:08

And I was sitting in their living room on a Sunday afternoon and there's a program with Griff Rhys Jones called Bookworm. And he used to interview authors talk, about books and so on. And along the bottom of the screen, these used to have a ribbon of information. And this ribbon of information says "bestselling children's book this week: Horrible Histories: Blitzed Brits by Terry Deary." I said "that's me! That's me!" and my wife, who was cooking Sunday dinner at the time in the kitchen next door, came in, "what's the matter, what's the matter?" "I'm the number one best seller!!" "Oh," she said, "I thought there's something wrong." So I was quickly put in my place, which is my wife's job, of course, and brought back down to earth. So Horrible Histories, on the back of the fifth book, became a bestselling series. And then people went back to the first four the Egyptians, the Tudors, the Romans, and the Victorians. 

Terry Deary  06:08

And they started to get the whip out and get me to write more and more Horrible Histories. There are probably about 100 titles out there now. But as I say, every one is different. It's a great advantage, not being a historian for me, because that means I come to a subject fresh, I read widely, and I see a new pattern in every one. I don't just pour information into a prepared sort of format or jelly mould. And people know this. They know that when they come to Horrible Histories, they're going to be surprised. It's going to be unpredictable. That's how Horrible Histories came about. And I'm still writing them today, 28 years later.

Miranda  06:55

That's incredible. You mentioned kind of the peculiar facts that you put in into the original fact book with jokes. And that seems to be a common thread through a lot of the Horrible Histories books, particularly these gruesome facts. Why do you think people react so well to the more gruesome side of history?

Terry Deary  07:13

Why you'd have to ask a psychiatrist that, of course. Look at today's newspaper, any newspaper, and you don't get the good news stories. You do not get an old lady walked across the street in York today, and safely reached the other side. No, they wouldn't publish that. An old lady cross the street in York and was knocked over by a bus. And then you can add a bit more. As her granddaughter ran to help her, she was flattened by a lorry. They will be buried side by side. You're laughing there, I can hear you're chuckling Yeah. You answer the question: why do you react so well to the gruesome side, you know. People enjoy other people's misery. So you know, it's not happening to me, isn't it great. That could have been me flattened by a bus. It wasn't. Ah, poor woman. 

Terry Deary  08:11

And for me, it's not just about being gruesome. It's about what people have done to other people. A lot of the Horrible Histories is about man's inhumanity to man, as it were, as the Bible says, I hope it's the Bible, is it? I'm not a historian. About human behaviour. And because I came from a theatrical background, my drama tutor always said, "the purpose of theatre is to answer just one question: why do people behave the way they do?" And that's what I explore in my novels. And that's really what I explore in Horrible Histories. You look at some sort of gruesome fact, the blood eagle by the Vikings, you know. Why do people behave like that? Why do they have to impose terror on other people? 

Terry Deary  09:04

And then, for me, I've gone further than my drama tutor, I want to answer the question, why do I behave the way I do? So you're looking at something like the blood eagle, where you cut somebody's spine off their ribs, reach in and pluck out their lungs. And you got to ask yourself, could I do that? What sort of person am I? And if the question, surprisingly, is, yeah, I could do that. Then you know a little bit more about yourself. So this is the real purpose of Horrible Histories, like that of a playwright, or of a fiction writer, exploring the question of human behaviour. Not facts. And in the past, especially schoolbooks, have focused on facts. And the reason for that is you can test a fact. When was the Battle of Hastings? 1066 - tick. 1067 - cross. And that became the sort of focus of school history anyway. And Horrible Histories put in the facts, yes, but they put far more in about human behaviour.

Miranda  10:15

So you mentioned that your background in theatre - does that background then help you to find a sort of character or a narrative to follow between all of the historical facts? 

Terry Deary  10:25

Yes, it's all about me being an actor. I joined a theatre company in Wales in 1972. And we were a community and schools theatre group. And we toured, we went round, tiny little villages, one or two small towns, performed in church halls, school halls, anywhere we could find a place. And we told their stories back to them. This valley that was threatened with being flooded to make a dam was a great success, because the people fought against it, and stopped it. So we told their story. But nobody had written a play about that. We had to make up our own plays, because we were telling their stories back to them. And after a while, it became obvious that I was the one in the company who was able to take all these disparate tales and knock them into some sort of shape. And I became almost the playwright for the company, even though that wasn't what I was employed for. I was employed mainly as a musician and actor to sing the songs. But they found I could write the stories as well, and give them this dramatic shape, a bit like William Shakespeare, only I'm not quite a genius like him. And that's how I became a writer, really, I can see shape and pattern in stories and link the facts together in an entertaining way so that I'm not page after page of facts. I've got an overarching storyline. 

Terry Deary  12:01

And the one that, 20 years ago, got me into a lot of trouble was The Balmy British Empire, when I came to the conclusion that actually, the British Empire did more harm than good. And a lot of right wing people wrote a lot of very abusive letters to me. And now suddenly, after 20 years, I'm fashionable. And people are saying, Oh, yeah, the British Empire what a terrible thing it was. But in those days, they said, you know, our British Empire brought civilization to the world! But Balmy British Empire book talks about things like the slave trade, and the development of various countries. But overall, the message was, the British Empire was not a good idea. Rather than just throw in a collection of facts, I told that story, I came up with a thesis and proved it using my examples, which were pretty gruesome. 

Terry Deary  13:00

And some of them are so gruesome. Even now, the publishers are saying, Are you sure this is suitable for children? And I still have to fight my corner for some of the facts I put in. It is a very fine sort of balancing act between what will inform young readers and what will horrify them and give them nightmares. And people often ask me, are any of your facts banned? And I have to say yes, sometimes the publishers say, you can't really put that in. And other times, and this is quite interesting, is because the world is changing, some of the facts that were acceptable 20 years ago, and now seen as ooo, you can't say that. And it's called, this is not very sensitive. It's insensitive. A young editor comes in and decides to redesign the book, comes across the fact. And now 20, 25 years, someone says, Oh, this is insensitive. And I have to say, well, I'm sorry. But you could rename my book series Insensitive Histories. It's just want I do. I'm an insensitive person when I tell the things that people don't want to hear. 

Terry Deary  14:17

But the world is changing, probably in that respect for the better, and Horrible Histories are having to modify, tone down some things, big up other things. One thing, and vanity is a terrible thing but I'm quite pleased with this, is that over the years, feminism has risen to become far more potent force, thank goodness. And I've always, always tried to make sure that women are represented in Horrible Histories, whereas standard histories just about ignore them. Women didn't really exist unless they were a queen. And so I've always been keen to make sure history is about everybody, and not just the kings and queens. 

Miranda  15:08

Well, we definitely appreciate that. I mean, it's, you know, you might think that women were only invented 100 years ago from a lot of history books. So I think it's an important thing. That's incredible. So kind of linked to Horrible Histories. A lot of our listeners will know you from that. But you've recently started a new series of books called Peasants' Revolting. So like you say, you want to include the little guy basically in all of these histories you're writing. And these books are more aimed towards adults. Why did you start writing them?

Terry Deary  15:38

It's a very unedifying characteristic. It's called rage, anger, you're supposed to suppress it, but I'm very, very angry person when it comes to history books. Go into your local bookshop, Waterstones and look at the bookshelves. And there they are arranged: great heroes of history, you can find biographies of people like Lord Nelson, and King Henry and wars and battle leaders and Napoleon, but they didn't actually make the world we lived in. It was the people who did the work. But if you're talking about Nelson, he was shot. Okay, fine. It served him right for sticking his stupid glittery head above the parapet. He almost  invited himself to be shot. And there's now a theory that the Battle of Trafalgar wasn't that important. Actually, they wouldn't have made much difference i Britain had lost it. 

Terry Deary  16:46

Let me tell you a story. I love stories. The Battle of Copenhagen was far- or Camperdown, I can't remember which now, Camperdown maybe - was a far more important sea battle. And the British sort of Admiral ship had its mast knocked over, and the flag was brought down. And this is the sign of surrender. And if Britain at that time, had lost that battle, the Dutch will have invaded and the whole history of the world would have changed. And the admiral at the time said, will somebody go up to the stump of the mast and nail the flag back on. The admiral wasn't going to do it. So a young fella from Sunderland called Jack Crawford said, I'll do it sir. And under fire, he climbed the stump of the mast, nailed the colours back on, and Britain went on to win the battle and change the history of the world. That man, Jack Crawford has a little statue in a Sunderland Park. Lord Nelson, who did a far less brave thing, just getting himself shot, has a huge statue in Trafalgar Square, you know, he's perceived as a hero. Come on. Now let's look at the Jack Crawfords of this world. And now people who think I'm a historian, which I'm not, say to me, who is your favourite character in history? And I've got to say, It's Mr. and Mrs. Peasant. They're the people who built the world we live in. Without them, we'd been nothing. So forget all your history books, well, don't forget them, but put them into a context and have a look at how the peasants lived, worked, died, and what they contributed. Because a million peasants are far more important than one bloke stuck on the column in Trafalgar Square. Sorry, but it's rage, rage against this idea of elitism, picking out people, sticking them on a monument, and then writing endless books above them. Let's hear it for the peasants and the women and the children.

Miranda  19:01

That's incredible.

Terry Deary  19:04

It's not, I should not be ranting at you like this. This is not dignified! All the other authors interviewed are ever so polite, and here's just me ranting. Look what you've done to me. It's all your fault. 

Miranda  19:16

No, it's perfect. We like a good rant. Similar to Peasants’ Revolting, I know that that's a series you're still currently working on. But what project are you working on right now?

Terry Deary  19:27

I'm on working on about five or six projects at the moment. A television series called Dangerous Days. And again, it's very much looking at how the world came to be as it is through people who took risks. I'm working on a movie about the Great North Run, which has been postponed from last year. It's to celebrate the 40th anniversary and I'm working on a new Horrible Histories title about railways. Well, people seem to like them, and again, you know, the railways were very much bottom up, in that the miners needed transport. And people like George Stephenson were very instrumental. And you couldn't have come from much of a poorer background than George Stephenson. Now, George Stephenson is from Newcastle. I'm from Sunderland, and Sunderland people don't like Newcastle, you've got to understand this. This is very petty, you know, very parochial, but I'm sorry. Sunderland people don't like Newcastle people. So I'm disinclined to like George Stephenson until I discovered that, in his old age, when he was famous, and he'd done wonderful things around the world for railways, not once, but three times, he turned down a knighthood. I thought, good for you, George, suddenly, I'm your fan. Do not hold with privilege. People who start from poor backgrounds, and then try to escape their backgrounds deny them. Now I came from a terribly poor background in Sunderland, and I'm not trying to escape it. I'm really hope that looking at the way I was brought up, and I won't go into my biography now. But the people, the peasants in this world, who come from no hope backgrounds can look at me and say, well, he made something of himself, you know, maybe we can too. So that's why Peasants' Revolting, is so important. And that's why Horrible Histories of railways, looks at some amazing stories about the people who built the railways. They were the real heroes, and the sufferings, they went through, the epidemics, the plagues, the hardships, and above all the dangers and the villains are the money men, the people who cashed in on the misery of the workers. 

Terry Deary  19:43

To give a quick example, if you're going to put gunpowder in to blast a tunnel, you drill the hole, you put gunpowder in, and then you pack the gunpowder down. And what you use to pack the gunpowder down was a copper rod. Why? Because copper doesn't spark. But the money men was such cheapskates, they gave one poor dynamiter, or gunpowder expert, a steel rod. He packed it in, it sparked, the steel rod shot out and went through his head, killing him. It also went through the head of the man standing behind them. Now this is a Horrible Histories story. But it's also a lesson that the rich and the powerful, the people who funded the railways, really were in it for profit, and nevermind the misery of the peasants who suffered because they were too cheap to buy copper rods instead of steel. That's a lesson. It's not about the horror of a man getting a steel rod to his head. That's quite a quick way to go really, isn't it? It's about the villains who caused that.

Miranda  23:20

Wow. Especially at the moment, you mentioned the epidemics and the plagues and things, all the suffering that they did. I think that this year has been similar in some regards. How has the pandemic that we're currently going through, especially all this time in lockdown, affected your work? 

Terry Deary  23:35

Well, it hasn't really, I'm a writer. So I sit in my room, it's a bit like a poet in a garret, if I'm being romantic. John Keats, up in the attic, the freezing attic of a cold house, writing away nonstop. As a writer, I am blessed. Last year, which was for most people was terribly, desperately unfortunate, especially if you own a pub. Last year, quite by chance. I've been commissioned to write 10 children's books. And that just simply kept me busy. And so in that sense, the pandemic didn't affect me in the way it has so many, many people for whom my heart bleeds, you know. My cousin used to run the pub, and I'm glad he's out of it. Because these people must be devastated. My theatre friends - I've written two plays and performance this year. And they're saying, well, we hope to get on the road in May. You think now, come on, you're dreaming. And so, and these people are sort of owed me money from plays they did in 2019. And they said, "we can pay you, but if we do, we'll go bankrupt. Can we sort of postpone the payment?" Yeah, you've got to say yes, haven't you. It's affected me in that way. 

Terry Deary  25:02

And the other thing I love doing is having creative meetings. And sorry, I love zoom. It's great. But it's not the same as sitting in a room, face to face with somebody, making real eye contact. And the other thing I love, and this is purely personal, I love jumping on a train in Durham, and going to London for meetings. That trip, which I make once or twice a month, in 2019. They've all gone. Because nobody wants to meet me because I come from me the plague in the North, don't I. I'm not allowed to meet them anyway. So I miss the meetings. So I miss the train trips. But my work, I'm just so blessed that A, I'm a writer, and B, I have lots of projects to keep me busy. But I really do feel for the people who are suffering, people in the hospitality industry, people like my friends in Jorvik, who can't operate as normal. And when is the world going to get back to normal? Well, I will tell you this is a secret, okay? If the politicians stopped saying, "we are following the science," because they made a bit of a pig's ear of it, you know, I won't go into the details. But why don't they follow the history? And if they look at history, pandemics last about 18 months, and then it's over. So where do you come out of it in July, August. You heard it here first from me. Right? Listen to the history, just for a change. We are coming out with a pandemic in July or August. If we get to July or August and we're still in it, you can poke fun at me, throw stones at me and say "You promised! You promised, you horrible man!" So it'd be interesting to see, won't it.

Miranda  27:03

Well, come July or August. I'm gonna call you and we'll have a little update to see what's going on then.

Terry Deary  27:10

I put my neck on the line here.

Miranda  27:12

I think that brings us to our final question. What's one interesting fact that your fans might not know about you?

Terry Deary  27:20

The most important thing in my life isn't writing books, it's running. I'm a runner. I've just passed my 75th birthday, and I'm still running. And I'm getting such a good fitness regime now. I'm faster than I was five years ago. And I'm still doing the Great North Run, which I've done 22 times. This year, I did a virtual Great North Run and beat my previous time from the previous two years by 20 minutes. So I'm a runner, and I look outside my window, and what I look at is the wind speed, the rain and think where shall I run today? And that's more important than writing books to me. Sorry, fans. I'm a runner. Running keeps you active, it sends oxygen around my brain and lets me write books. So if it wasn't for running, I probably wouldn't write any more Horrible Histories. I'd be a vegetable. Not a lot of people know that. 

Miranda  28:24

Well, I think that's all of our questions for today. Thank you so much for doing this interview. We really appreciate it.

Terry Deary  28:30

My pleasure. And all the best to you and to all my readers and the people who listen to this. I hope you get through the pandemic safe and well.

Miranda  28:40

Thanks again, Terry. You can find Terry Deary's wide array of books from Horrible Histories to his new series Peasants' Revolting at all good bookstores. 

Miranda  28:49

Speaking of books, That Jorvik Viking Thing podcast is an Audible Associate. If you sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial using the code VikingThing-21, you'll get a free audiobook download, and you'll also be supporting your favourite Viking podcast. Even better, the audio book is yours to keep forever, no strings attached. This time we recommend "Horrible Histories: Vicious Vikings" by of course, Terry Deary. Listen to Terry himself tell you all the foul facts about Vicious Vikings, including Viking gods in wedding dresses, corpses on trial and death by booby trapped statues. 

Miranda  29:27

Thank you for listening to That Jorvik Viking Thing podcast. You can find us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and anywhere you get your podcasts.  

Miranda  29:36

If you'd like to support That Jorvik Viking Thing, visit JorvikThing.com to make a donation, as well as to find a whole horde of Viking related content. Don't forget to hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode of That Jorvik Viking Thing podcast. 

Miranda  30:47

That Jorvik Viking Thing Podcast is a production of the Jorvik Group and York Archaeological Trust. Researched by Miranda Schmeiderer and Ashley Fisher. Produced by Ashley Fisher. Sound designed and edited by Miranda Schmeiderer.