That JORVIK Viking Thing Podcast

Modern Viking Music with Alexander Milas

February 18, 2021 Miranda Schmeiderer, Alexander Milas
That JORVIK Viking Thing Podcast
Modern Viking Music with Alexander Milas
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

What are the different types of modern Viking music? Is modern Viking music authentic? Would the Vikings have played didgeridoos?

We talk about all this and more with Alexander Milas (founder and director of Twin V, and former editor in chief of Metal Hammer) who has recently produced a mini-documentary on Wardruna and their most recent album, Kvitravn.

Listen and enjoy, and please consider leaving us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen!

Miranda  00:00

Hi, and welcome to That Jorvik Viking Thing Podcast. I'm your host, Miranda Schmeiderer. In Viking times, a Thing was a gathering a place where leaders and warriors could meet and talk. In the 21st century, our Thing is a virtual place where Viking academics and enthusiasts from around the world can come together to share knowledge. So hold on to your helmets as we learn more about Vikings on That Jorvik Viking Thing Podcast.

Miranda  00:39

This time we have Alex Milas, founder and director of Twin V: a creative solutions company, and former editor-in-chief of Metal Hammer, a monthly heavy metal and rock music magazine. He's recently produced a mini documentary on Wardruna, and their most recent album, Kvitravn. Hi, Alex, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being with us today.

Alex Milas  00:58

It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Miranda  01:00

Let's just start from the very beginning. We're talking about Viking music today. Is that its own genre of music, or what is it really? Can you define it for us?

 Alex Milas  01:09

Well, you know, that's a really interesting question. I suppose you almost have to begin with well, what is Viking? You know, I mean, is it the Marvel movie Thor: Ragnarok vision of Vikings? Is it The Last Kingdom or The Vikings on History Channel version? Or is it a Norse history and mythology inspired brand of world music that's fully modern, but just incorporates ideas and concepts from that time? So I think if you can answer those, and I think we might need a few hours to do that in, you can say whether it's its own thing, but I think one thing is certain is there is a vast preponderance of culture, not just music, but just all kinds of artistic expressions that in some really interesting ways, incorporate a lot of things that we kind of put under a broad heading of Viking. But in many cases, we're really talking about just something that is, you know, from an area of the world that is really intriguing and connects with a bunch of ideas that I think we resonate with.

 Miranda  02:09

Well, so then I guess I should ask, what are the different types of modern Viking music? For those of us who aren't super into that scene?

 Alex Milas  02:17

Well, it's so interesting, right? You know, because I suppose just like, you know, comic books, movies, films, all that - a lot of different genres of music, you know, have connected and so, you know, I come from, you could say, the world of heavy metal, I used to run Metal Hammer magazine for about 10 years. And I wrote for Kerrang! before then, and my background was in archaeology. And so I was really interested to kind of see how a lot of folk music was blending with metal. And I think if you're into heavy metal, then you probably know about Amon Amarth, who are obviously one of the biggest death metal bands out there. And pretty much all of their music falls into three categories: Viking historical events, what it was like to be a Viking, and the things that Vikings dreamed of. And that's it, you know, and they've been going for over 25 years. And it's quite extraordinary. Um, but there are other kinds as well, and I suppose Wardruna, you know, headed up something that's really interesting, because while they have emerged from the world of metal, the music that Einar Selvik and Wardruna make is so completely distinct, because it doesn't just use traditional instrumentation from you know, Norway. It brings in didgeridoos, and all kinds of modern production techniques. And so, with them, it seems to be that, although it feels like it is old and timeless, the truth is, it's fully modern music, but it brings in kind of traditional instrumentation and ways of composing that are really unique and really, really interesting. So we're talking about death metal, we're talking about, of course, world music and folk music, but there are other areas as well. I mean, just I mean, you only have to look at Led Zeppelin is singing about Immigrant Song to know that Vikings and Norse mythology have occupied a musical headspace for a really long time. And yet all the signposts exist in every decade, not just now.

 Miranda  04:10

That's incredible. Well, you mentioned Wardruna's use of instruments that the Vikings would have used as well. Can we expect any sort of level of authenticity when we listen to music that's inspired by Viking culture?

 Alex Milas  04:24

Well, you know, it's an interesting question, because, of course, one of the biggest frustrations about, you know, Nordic history is that they didn't really write things down, you know. And so what's quite interesting is that, you know, despite the kind of like Runic inscriptions that archaeologists have been, you know, uncovering or have sort of remained for a long time, there is a lot about their life ways that just isn't really known. You know, I mean, you can kind of recreate Gregorian chants based on the things that they actually stuck into books. But when it comes to a lot of Viking music, I mean, you can know what the instruments look like. But what's so interesting about Wardruna and Einar's journey is he's kind of had to figure out the sounds that he could summon for many of those instruments and what he could reconstruct by using kind of, you know, analogues that are still played today in traditional societies. And so what he is summoned, I think, isn't necessarily authentic in that sense, in some way, I think it's important to kind of, you know, point out that he himself will frequently say this. You know, this is his interpretation, but he's not trying to reconstruct music from the past. This is music about what's happening right now, it just has a really unique angle, but, you know, talking about didgeridoos, these are instruments from Australia. And he brings that into his music. I mean, so he does something that I think is actually in one sense, very, traditionally Viking, because as we know, from their society, they were great adapters, and incredible hybridizers, that they brought in the things that they learned, and they were very into synchronizing, you know, both beliefs, and also ways of doing things, you know, because they're innovators. And what do all great innovators do, they learn. They don't just try and preserve some kind of, I guess, artificially constructed sense of cultural purity. They were traders, they were travelers, and they observe things, and they brought them back. And so in that sense Wardruna is probably the most accurate expression of what their music may have been like, because I'd like to think that if they traveled to the Middle East to trade, that they would have brought back some of the sounds as well. And that's exactly the kind of thing that Wardruna does.

 Miranda  06:26

Exactly. If the Vikings had had access to didgeridoos, I'm sure they would have used them. There's not a doubt in my mind, really. In your documentary for Metal Hammer, you look at a modern Viking festival that features a lot of heavy metal music. What do you think metal, rather than other genres of music, utilize from Viking culture and imagery?

 Alex Milas  06:45

Well, you know, it's interesting, because I think that, you know, I mean, metal music is very... and I think you're talking about Midgardblot Festival, which is in the south of Norway. And what's interesting about that, one is it's actually set among these historic burial mounds, just where the Kattegat Sea becomes the Oslofjord, which kind of goes up. And it's a really interesting place to be and very historically significant. And of course, this is like the most metal setting you could ever have. But also what was interesting about that festival was it wasn't just metal music that you had, you had all kinds of folk music, you had storytellers. And I think that that was very emblematic of, I think, a vibe among a lot of metal listeners, where they're actually very open to kind of new things and new experiences. And I think it's because it's not just about the music, it is a culture that's very responsive, and there is so much about what, you know, Nordic cultures represent in the modern era, you know, in terms of their animism, their regard for nature, you know, and all those things that I think resonate powerfully. And I think metal and rock music are areas of music that really resonate, but then, Wardruna, when you listen to it, it's not metal at all, you know, it is something else, you know, entirely, but there is a kinship there, where it's cut from the same kind of fabric, and I think that's why it worked, you know, years ago in the metal community, but also why it's transcended genre completely, because it sounds like kind of nothing else that's out there. And so a frequent conversation is, well, how do you categorize it? Well, the truth is, it's almost like world music, but coming from a really unique angle, because it is both historical as well as you know, situated geographically. And I think that's what makes it so interesting is you don't actually have to come from any specific musical background or taste to appreciate what they're doing.

 Miranda  08:34

You mentioned in our email chain for this, that if somebody would have told you that a Norse folk artist would have been charting worldwide, you would have thought that they were crazy 10 years ago. Why do you think that all of a sudden, in this moment Wardruna and just Viking music as a whole is doing so well? Why is it resonating with modern audiences?

 Alex Milas  08:53

Well, you know, I don't want to bring too much of myself into this, you know, but to take it completely out of this, you know, I used to do kendo which is like a Japanese fencing, right? You know, and part of it was Zen meditation, and don't worry, this story has an end. But you learn how to meditate. And if you keep at it, you end up going to like a Zen monastery usually to kind of spend some time, simply learning, you know, their method of meditation and clearing the mind. And I remember speaking to an old monk, she was from France, and she was telling me how, in the Far East, a lot of people, you know, kind of practice Zen Buddhism, you know, because they want to kind of progress, you know, something that they've been born with, and all that, whereas in the West, a lot of people they come to it because it's like a cure for a sickness, you know, because in I think our modern lives we're so completely overwhelmed with, you know, social media, advertising, kind of like consumer driven, life choices, just all kinds of stuff. It's very rare that we kind of sit down and meditate and I think there's something about Wardruna that is also very spiritual, for people. It is meditative. And it comes from a deep place. And I think that's why it has that universal appeal; it's not just the beauty of the music, I think it touches a part of us that other music doesn't necessarily. I mean, so to be honest, if I had to compare it, I would compare it to traditional spiritual music, although that's not to say that's where Einar is coming from, but it seems to occupy a same kind of space, you know, I mean, there's something so special about it. But if you have the benefit of going to a physical event, a live show, and you go to a Wardruna show, what's so interesting is to see the cross section of people that show up, and it seems everywhere, because I think Wardruna has a universal appeal, which is unlikely, because everything about popular music tells us it needs to be frankly idiotic, in order to kind of have mass appeal. Whereas Wardruna is anything but, and yet it has achieved this commercial success, which I think is beyond the talking about Viking culture, or whatever else, I think is a lesson to say that now, people are hungry for something, and the listening public can be credited with a little more intelligence than most of the kind of music that you find in pop charts. And to me, that is a really validating thing to see. Because, you know, you listen to kind of what gets to number one sometimes and it can be a little depressing,

 Miranda  11:21

Fair, fair. And I think that hopefully, once all of this is over, and there is a live Wardruna concert, I think that their audience might have diversified even more since their last one, I think they're going to bring an entirely new audience to their music, I hope anyway,

 Alex Milas  11:35

I really hope so too. You know, I think that there's something so wonderful about what Einar is doing, because it's so well researched. It's so conscientious, you know, I mean, just like, you know, he is such a very sensitive and thoughtful artist, you know, so that, I mean, there is just not an ounce of cynicism in him or about what he's doing. I mean,  you can be sure that everything about the music is deliberate, you know, and it's there for a reason. And I think that's really special. And I think that, you know, the most important audience are the kids, who gets to go along as well, because, because they go to it without any kind of cultural baggage or preconception about, you know, just like what this what music can be, what history can be, and what discovery can be as well. And so that's what's really exciting. I think it's just that there's a whole generation of people that might be exposed to this early on, you know, and it will set them on a really important and rewarding path.

 Miranda  12:28

You mentioned that you have a background in archaeology, do you feel that that background gives you a different perspective on their music, specifically on what Wardruna are doing?

 Alex Milas  12:37

Yeah, I think there's a reason why it resonated so powerfully with me when I first heard it was because it sort of tripped the same kind of curiosities that I had, you know, when I was an archaeologist, and also an anthropologist as well, because there's something so complex happening with that music. It is beautiful. But it's also very deep, you know, you only have to look at some of the interviews that Einar has given, and some of the research that he's done. I mean, you know, he gives lectures, he speaks to archaeologists himself as an authority figure who has spent a lot of time literally uncovering these mysteries, because I mean, this is the weird thing, going back to what I said before about how there's so much about kind of Viking history that just wasn't written down, there's still very much that we just don't know, you know, because what you're doing is you're almost doing a bit of detective work trying to reconstruct a history that happened over a thousand years ago about these mysterious people. As we know, Vikings occupy very popular imagination, when it comes to what they look like, what they were, what they sound like, and all those sorts of things. And Einar, I think why it resonates with him is because he is not merely a musician, what he's undertaken is very similar to academic research. In fact, it is academic, and he has not just endeavoured to make good music. He's also endeavoured to create something that is historically and culturally rooted. And that's why I think it's so interesting. And I think that's why he is a person who is just as interesting to hear speak as he is to hear play.

 Miranda  14:11

Well, I work for an archaeological company. So I would be remiss if I didn't ask what you did, or if you went on a digs, or what your favourite artefact you might have found was. I just really need to know a bit more about that if that's okay.

 Alex Milas  14:22

No, of course, no, it's a delight. Yeah, I mean, I am like a lot of Americans, I began my archaeological journey as an anthropologist, that was my bachelor's. And, you know, like, I began to get into slave archaeology in the States, which is why I'm distinctly interested in the reconstruction of- not the reconstruction of history. That's the problematic view to take. It's more about, you know, kind of telling stories that are untold and undocumented. And I think that anybody who's familiar with American history knows that there are vast swathes of people who have never had their stories told and so, living in Virginia, you know, plantation archaeology was of distinct interest because for a long time, what a lot of archaeology and history was reconstructing the lives of politically powerful white people. And, you know, what was far more interesting to my first professor, who kind of passed on that intrigue to me, was just trying to reconstruct the lives of people that that were undocumented, you know, and just learn who they were. And that's something that carried into philosophy and my journey here to the UK where I studied at UCL, and began to develop an interest in industrial archaeology - again, looking at the lives of factory workers, you know, in the 1800s. And again, you know, you could say, people whose lives were not really written about. I mean, you could extract a lot from like texts, like Dickens and all these other things, but it was just something was really interesting to me, because - and I don't know, if you feel this way as an archaeologist, but to me, it kind of felt like, it's not just an opportunity to kind of tell the stories of people whose stories have not been told or maybe not celebrated. But also it's a way of righting historical wrongs, you know, because it's a way of giving a voice to people who have not had their stories told. And that's, to me, what makes things like Wardruna important because it's the same level of care that I think archaeologists take and you know, how they tell stories, you know, because there's always political dimensions. It's the same level of care that, you know, I see in what Einar does in regards to his music, he's careful, and he is thoughtful. And as I was saying before, really deliberate, which is, I think, why I can say personally, it really resonated with me the first time I heard it, it was special. But meeting him and interviewing him for the first time years ago was even more special.

 Miranda  16:49

Obviously, we're really big fans of Wardruna and Einar are here at Jorvik, he tends to blend modern and traditional sounds to make something that's just so epic, really. You've just released a mini documentary about Wardruna, and their new album, what was it like to work with them? How much of the history and archaeology of Vikings do they put into their music and method?

 Alex Milas  17:09

Oh, well, that's a great question. And yeah, it's so interesting to kind of have seen his process. We went to his studio, and we walked out in the woods with him, you know, to sit around, where there are these ancient mounds and burial sites, and standing stones and so on. And you really get a distinct sense that this is much more than music for him, it's like a life way for him, what he does comes from a place of very deep belief, and kind of witnessing that. And in archaeology, you would call it a phenomenological approach, which is basically where it's not just reading or researching things, it's also going and experiencing them as well. And, you know, some of the things that you want to tap into in the new album had to do with ancient ideas, sorcery, and so on, but not like in a kind of, like wearing a wizard hat sense, more like, going out, sitting in the woods, watching the sun go down and not moving until the sun goes up, and really just absorbing the sounds and the feelings and sensations that come from that, that's the core of what a lot of this album is about this concept of animism. You know, there's a great quote in one of those webisodes that we did, where he talks about a lot of the problems that we ran into, kind of happened when we took the sacred out of the earth and put it into the sky, which is a simple way of describing a really complex and abstract thing, which is a very modern problem. I mean, there is much about Wardruna that addresses environmental concerns, obviously our current situation with COVID. You know, it deals very, I think, cleverly and intelligently with issues of the environment and our relationship with nature that aren't, these aren't ancient problems. These are problems that are affecting us right now. And so again, it's modern music, but there's also modern motivations behind it as well. 

 Miranda  19:05

I think that you can definitely feel those inspirations when you listen to it, especially I just recently listened to it all in one go. And it's just this entire experience. The songs just work really well together to kind of create this whole atmosphere almost. It's amazing. Einar was involved in the music for well, a lot of Viking popular culture, but specifically the show Vikings and the new Assassin's Creed. Do you think that this has helped bring people to Viking music? Specifically, does it make them rethink what Viking culture might have been like?

 Alex Milas  19:34

Yeah, that's such a great way of framing it because I think that yes, it does. I mean, you only have to look around to kind of see the preponderance of, just Viking depictions In popular culture, we mentioned Marvel Comics, you just kind of - well, I mean, just look at what Jorvik is doing. I mean, just look at the kind of - these are not people with niche interests who are coming in stimulated by this whole thing. I mean, just like you know, just like when the physical event is there, it is absolutely astonishing how many people turn up who are both dressed as Vikings, but also the people that are there to kind of watch the spectacle. There is popular appeal, I think, because I think Vikings, they occupy a really stimulating conceptual space, far from the kind of like the plastic horned helmet visions that I think many of us grew up with, I think that what's emerging now is a vision of Vikings who were complex beings with complex internal politics as well, not just like the Raiders of yore, but also explorers, farmers, people who lived in all kinds of different ways. And I think it's simply, and I'm speaking as an archaeologist here, because there was a lack of historical documentation, because they did not self document, for instance, the way even the Romans did. There is so much about our current life ways here in the West, that were probably influenced by them, there are many things that we probably do, say, and are influenced by them, that we don't even realize really kind of came from them. You know, I mean, when I was a kid, and this was a very long time ago, you always kind of you always heard about Christopher Columbus, you know, you heard very little about Leif Erickson, for instance, and all that. It's just like, some of the achievements that we've only sort of pulled from the sagas, you know, are absolutely mind blowing. So, you just try to imagine what else is there that we just don't know about yet. It's really interesting and stimulating, and I think that's what really makes Vikings so, so compelling as a subject and why it is so popular now. It's because there's a mystery there, you know, because we don't really know. And we're still kind of mapping out who they were.

 Miranda  21:45

I think that kind of brings us to my last question. And really, how have you seen Einar develop as an artist? Do you think he's changed quite a lot since you first interviewed him all those years ago?

 Alex Milas  21:56

Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, I think certainly, having been fortunate to kind of interact with him early on, when I was at Metal Hammer, I think he's grown in confidence in a way that only happens when you have the validation of success, you know, what something that comes, and I don't think any artists who is true to themselves ever feels completely successful, or that their job is done because there's always more to be done, and you're always looking to the next horizon. But I think if one thing has changed, I think seeing the appeal, and I think this is something that I can say to, on behalf of everybody that's worked with him as well, just like the management, the music labels, all the people that are sort of behind and around him, seeing this music connect with so many people from around the world is so important, but it truly is something that nobody could have predicted, and I think it could only come from a huge amount of hard work, incremental and slow strategy, because this is not the kind of thing that you can just sort of drop, it's the success that we've seen over the last few weeks for the new record, is a product of years of careful plodding and incremental growth and all that because there's, as much as I would love to see one, there is no kind of Norse folk music magazine that you can easily drop this into, so it's just one of those things where it's come from a lot of belief and hard work. And above all else, just making really good music.

 Miranda  23:33

That's amazing. Well, thank you so much, Alex, for being with us today. We really appreciate your time.

 Alex Milas  23:39

It's my absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

 Miranda  23:41

Thanks again, Alex. If you'd like to watch Alex's documentary on Wardruna, check out our show notes. And don't forget, Alex will be hosting our special live stream event An Evening with Einar Selvik, coming up on Saturday, the 19th of February. Get your tickets before they're gone

 Miranda  23:56

That Jorvik Viking Thing podcast is an Audible Associate. If you sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial using the code VikingThing-21,you'll get a free audiobook download, and you'll also be supporting your favourite Viking podcast. Even better, the audio book is yours to keep forever, no strings attached. This time, we recommend "History of Heavy Metal," Written and Narrated by Andrew Neil. The history of heavy metal brings us extraordinary stories of larger than life characters living to excess, from the household names of Ozzy Osborne, Iron Maiden and Metallica to the brutal notoriety of the underground Norwegian black metal scene and the new wave of British heavy metal. 

 Miranda  24:36

Thank you for listening to That Jorvik Viking Thing podcast. You can find us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and anywhere you get your podcasts. 

 Miranda  24:45

If you'd like to support That Jorvik Viking Thing, visit JorvikThing.com to make a donation, as well as to find a whole horde of Viking related content. Don't forget to hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode of That Jorvik Viking Thing podcast.

 Miranda  25:52

That Jorvik Viking Thing Podcast is a production of the Jorvik Group and York Archaeological Trust. Researched by Miranda Schmeiderer and Ashley Fisher. Produced by Ashley Fisher. Sound designed and edited by Miranda Schmeiderer.

Introduction
Beginning of Interview
Question 1
Question 2
Question 3
Question 4
Question 5
Question 6
Question 7
Question 8
Question 9
Question 10
Conclusion